Rules, rules, rules!

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Mr Incredibrawl
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Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 05 Sep 2011, 13:23

After scrimmage practice a couple of weeks ago and the recent bouts (my first 2 back to back!), I thought maybe we might have a thread to discuss any discrepancies (I might have) in the rules and hope to clear up any confusion this might bring (for me). This follows after the debates I've been having with the WFTDA-certified refs on Zebrahuddle.com on being out of play during a 'no pack' scenario, which I'll get to in a bit. If anyone thinks this might be a bit of a waste of time or that it's all been covered elsewhere, let me know and I'll retreat back into my dark corner!

Right, the points I wanted to clarify are:

* Destruction of the pack: I noticed at scrimmage practice a week ago last Monday (22/8) that, during one jam, the red team sped up off the pivot line, trying to control the speed of the pack as their jammer was in the penalty box. The blue team tried to catch up, but most of them seemed to be struggling and falling behind. The one blue blocker right behind the rearmost red blocker actively slowed down using t-stops after the rest of her team started calling to her to slow down, creating a wider and wider gap between the two groups of blockers. At the time, I wasn't sure what to call it as (as per 6.10.20 of the WFTDA rules, it's Out Of Play) and as we don't have 10-foot markers on the track, it wasn't clear how far apart the 2 groups had become. Had it been called, the foremost blue blocker would have been given the penalty for actively slowing down and splitting the pack up. Just to let peeps know that, if you split the pack up this way, and the two groups become more than 10 feet apart, it's a major and off to the box with you!

At the travel team bout this weekend (3/9), I remember destruction of the pack penalties being given to the pivots (I think these might have been signalled as Illegal Procedure by Head Ref Scrim) who were calling to their team to speed up/slow down. The reasoning behind this, I think, is that, since no one individual blocker changed speed abruptly (i.e. they all did), the penalty transerred to the pivot who was controlling her team in that jam.

* 'No Pack' situation: It has been said by the WFTDA-certified refs in the States that, when a 'No Pack' is called, all blockers are immediately Out Of Play and therefore can't block or assist until a pack is formed and they are again in play. The thought behind this is that the definition of 'In Play' in the glossary in the WFTDA rules refers to being inside the Engagement Zone to be in play. If there isn't a pack, there isn't an Engagement Zone so no one's in play. And therefore, if you're not in play, you're out of play. Unfortunately, this is one of those things that isn't written anywhere in the rules and there are even some bits which seem to contradict this, making it hard to justify when called. However, with pretty much every certified ref agreeing that No Pack means Out of Play, I guess that's the way it should be called.

Again, at the weekend, there were many 'No Pack' situations going on and there was still blocking aplenty that went uncalled, leading me to think that the above Out of Play definition isn't widely circulated. So just beware!

Now, with a stonking headache and my luchtime over, back to work I go! :cry:

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Chick Dastardly
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 05 Sep 2011, 13:31

Thanks for that Brawly! Really useful information and yes - please do bring these to our attention and and when you see them!

I saw some out of plays being called when I was sure they were inside the engagement zone - but as you say, if this was during a no pack scenario then that would explain it!

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Lil » 05 Sep 2011, 18:09

Very useful, thanks Brawly! It's always good to go over these things so that when they do happen everyone knows what the state of play is.

On the weekend one of the Plymouth blockers blocked Wrecks (I think...) when out of play and she seemed very confused when she got a major. She didn't leave the track straight away and only did so when her pivot yelled at her to get off - I think she was on the point of getting a second penalty. Not only is this non-awareness really bad in terms of penalties, but it makes your team look like they don't know the rules - which the opposing team will try to exploit.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 05 Sep 2011, 21:07

Okay, good to know this isn't a complete waste of time!

@ Chick, it's possible that the OOP penalties that were called may have been wrong (refs are only human) or that the penalty was seen and by the time it was called the pack might have caught up making it seem like it wasn't out of play. Maybe.

@ Li, it seems that some players are somewhat clueless about penalties. I remember blowing my whistle and screaming "OUT OF PLAY!" at one of the of the Liverpool girls who just stared at me blankly. Can't remember if I was signalling it right though, my nerves might have got the better of me! :oops:

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Lil » 05 Sep 2011, 21:39

My policy - if I hear a whistle and see a ref looking at me looking angry, it was probably me...

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Adele Linquent » 05 Sep 2011, 23:25

It can be really confusing to be in a pack. There are a lot of whistle calls that I just blank out because they're far away from me. To be honest I think I probably blank most of them out.
I did surprise myself when I noticed that a major was called on a Jammer and I could then tell my team and we geared into Power Jam mode a lot faster. It was a one-off so far though :oops: . It should always be like that, but I'm usually not that sharp! Yet. Hopefully yet.
Usually I react when I hear my number and then I look at the Ref to assess if that's a major or not. Most of the time, s/he has to repeat because I didn't associate the whistle or absence of whistle with the call of my number.

So please, Refs, bear in mind that's it's really full-on in the pack and bear with us if you have to repeat after a blank stare. We're all learning.

... it's not as if we were playing both offence and defence in the same second with girls throwing themselves at us from all directions after all. :mrgreen:

Anyway, Brawly, carry on with your posts, they are very interesting indeed. :)

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Cherry Sour » 05 Sep 2011, 23:40

Lillibit Lethal wrote:My policy - if I hear a whistle and see a ref looking at me looking angry, it was probably me...


Yeah, and if they're waving a pointy finger about, they probably want you to go to the box...

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 06 Sep 2011, 07:39

Adele Linquent wrote:So please, Refs, bear in mind that's it's really full-on in the pack and bear with us if you have to repeat after a blank stare. We're all learning.


Fair enough, we usually give it a while to sink in before issuing insubordination majors! :P

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 06 Sep 2011, 08:49

Mr Incredibrawl wrote:@ Li, it seems that some players are somewhat clueless about penalties. I remember blowing my whistle and screaming "OUT OF PLAY!" at one of the of the Liverpool girls who just stared at me blankly. Can't remember if I was signalling it right though, my nerves might have got the better of me! :oops:


I remember that one! Yep it looked like she way still in the engagement zone, that's probably why the blank stare! At least she still stopped what she was doing, which is tough when you're skating and you disagree about what you're doing (even if you manage not to argue it's difficult to keep the wtf look off your face!) :mrgreen:

You did an excellent job Brawly, I was well impressed. Especially as the nerves/tension must run really high in first bouts. Kudos

(Now you and Butch just need to find a volume level that's somewhere between what the the two of you have at the moment!! hahaha)

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 06 Sep 2011, 12:56

Thanks Chick!

Yeah, I need to find a volume that doesn't make it seem like I'm angry with everyone! :twisted:

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 06 Sep 2011, 13:03

One last thing about the 'no pack'/Out Of Play thing, Major Wood (Level 4 ref with Nashville, anyone else spotting a Dungeons & Dragons theme with the certified refs?) seems to have gotten a little annoyed with me asking questions about this subject and has kinda justified his decision by adding that the 'no pack' signal (two arms in the air, similar to to the 'Y' in YMCA) is, in fact, a double Out Of Play signal, telling both the frontmost and rearmost players (in effect, everyone) that they're OOP. This was also stated by Jessticular Fortitude (another certified ref, level 2 or 3, can't remember) in a different topic on Zebrahuddle. Just so you know.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 06 Sep 2011, 13:05

Cheers Brawly - and thanks for taking the flack on zebrahuddle on our behalf!!

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Adele Linquent » 06 Sep 2011, 13:35

Mr Incredibrawl wrote:Major Wood (Level 4 ref with Nashville, anyone else spotting a Dungeons & Dragons theme with the certified refs?) seems to have gotten a little annoyed with me asking questions about this subject

Tah! Some people have normal parents, and Mr Wood-whose-I-don't-know-the-name-reference got his f@#ked-up mum to recite the entire rule-set for the whole 9 months he was riping in the womb, which means he never had to learn and be slightly confused. Ever. In his whole life. :evil:


You're the best Brawly! :)

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 06 Sep 2011, 14:25

:roll: public thread!!

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Adele Linquent » 06 Sep 2011, 16:07

:P public threads are boring...


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