Rules, rules, rules!

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the Blizzard
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby the Blizzard » 06 Sep 2011, 16:19

I thought it's quite clear that during no pack everyone is out of play, because out of play penalties apply for creating no pack:
6.10 OUT OF PLAY PENALTIES
Out of play penalties are applied for actions occurring in front of and/or behind the legal
Engagement Zone and for actions that illegally destroy the pack. ... Out of play actions include but are not
limited to blocking, assisting, destroying the pack, failure to reform a pack, and failure to return to
the Engagement Zone. ...


and also to note that
6.10.20 Illegally destroying the Pack: The act of illegally destroying the pack causes all Blockers
to lose relative position. ...

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 07 Sep 2011, 07:55

Yep, destruction of the pack is an out of play penalty (like the previous example of slowing down to split the pack up), but nowhere does it actually state that all blockers on the track and in bounds during a 'no pack' are out of play. The loss of relative position does not mean out of play either as it's not defined as such. Relative position is just the skaters position relative to the others on the track, which doesn't necessarily include being out of play. Confused now!

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Skatey Bo Baity » 07 Sep 2011, 13:37

Del: LOL :lol:

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 08 Sep 2011, 08:21

A rules question came up last night: can a jammer slide past opponents on one knee and still earn points? The answer is yes, as long as the pass is legal. Here's the Zebrahuddle thread that confirms it's not a requirement to be upright and skating to earn points, only in bounds (which also contains my feeble attempts to match wits with the other refs): http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=2157.0

Hope this helps!

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby The Wrecknician » 08 Sep 2011, 10:38

I'm still unsure about this one. If you take a knee you are a 'downed skater' therefore it would be a major penalty for someone to block you. So you could effectively run full speed at the pack then drop to your knees and slide to the front of the pack completely untouchable. Hmmm

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Tequila Jammer » 08 Sep 2011, 12:51

um, no she wouldn't score points because if she is on a knee she is not in play. She would also receive a penalty for taking herself out of play. Illegal procedure.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 08 Sep 2011, 13:11

To Wrecks and TJ, if you look at section 8 and in particular:

8.3 - After clearing the pack and completing her initial (first) pass, Jammers score points by passing skaters on their second and each subsequent pass. These are considered “scoring passes.” Jammers can score a maximum of one point per Blocker per scoring pass. In order to receive a point for passing an opponent the Jammer must:

8.3.1 - Pass opposing skaters in bounds, legally, without committing penalties.

It doesn't say anything about being in play (that old chestnut!). I can't see anything in the Illegal Procedure part of the penalties section about consistantly taking a knee either (I may be being blind, so check for yourself if you like).

Blocking-wise, you are correct, no skaters may block a downed opponent as per:

5.1.4.4 - Skaters may not execute a block on an opponent who is down, falling, or getting up after a fall. Skaters are considered down if they have fallen, been knocked to the ground or have taken a knee. Skaters on one knee are considered down. After downing herself or falling, a skater is considered down until she is standing, stepping, and/or skating. Stationary standing players are not considered down.

So technically, you could try and pass the whole pack on one knee. Although, I don't know how feasible this would be as I'm sure you'd lose speed pretty quickly on the floor and, if you're not careful, you may get a penalty as per:

Minor -
6.3.3 - Any contact outside of the normal skating motion which lands below the legal target zone that causes an opposing skater to stumble but not fall or lose her relative position.

6.3.5 - A downed skater re-entering the track that causes an opposing skater to stumble but not fall or lose her relative position.

Major -
6.3.6 - Any contact outside of the normal skating motion which lands below the legal target zone that causes an opposing skater to fall or lose her relative position.

6.3.10 - A downed skater re-entering the track that causes an opposing skater to fall or lose relative position

6.3.9 - A skater who habitually, three or more times during the course of a bout, falls in front of opponents, causing them to lose relative position, even if she “falls small.” The intent is to penalize a skater who repeatedly falls because she is a danger to her opponents. A single skater who repeatedly trips other skaters, even when “falling small” is adversely affecting game play and safety.

So, if you're belting round the track and take a knee to get past people and in doing so force the blockers out of their relative position, a particularly aware ref may give you a major for doing it too many times. However, I'm not sure this is the only disadvantage to this strategy, so I'm off to trawl t'internet for anything more concrete.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Tequila Jammer » 08 Sep 2011, 18:53

an illegal procedure doesn't really sound like a legal pass to me, and it does say legal, whether or not it specifies up or down. I wil check the rules, at some point, but if you can get a penalty for taking a knee after the whistle, then it sounds like its an illegal procedure. Also if a blocker hits a jammer to the ground during her attempt to pass, if the hips of the blocker fall behind the jammer whilst she is down, it is not a legal pass, and she will not score a point....unless she gets up, gets behind the blocker again and tries to re-pass.
does that make sense?

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 08 Sep 2011, 19:24

Erm, sorry, you've lost me! My point was that I can't find any evidence of any penalties being caused by being down and sliding along the floor (not scooching along on the floor using your hands obviously). Why would you get a penalty for taking a knee after the starting whistle? Why wouldn't a jammer get the point if she's knocked down and the blocker falls behind while she's down? Am I missing something here? As the rules state, "Any legal pass counts", as long as the jammer isn't commiting penalties and passing people by doing so, the points should be awarded. I get the bit about re-passing, but that shouldn't need to be done by a downed jammer as there is no requirement to be in play to score points, only in bounds.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Adele Linquent » 08 Sep 2011, 19:59

I think Tequila is right. I tried to find it in the rules, but I couldn't find it and I don't have the time to look further, but I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that you're not allowed to purposefully turn yourself into a down player (so essentially it means you can't take a knee purposefully if you haven't been hit and don't try to stand up really quick). I think they mention it in the context of trying to avoid a block. In which case, sliding along on one knee can't score you any points, since it wouldn't be legal.

I think this is what Tequila is saying.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Tequila Jammer » 08 Sep 2011, 23:04

yes pretty much. if you are downed you are not in play, if you are not in play, you cannot score points. You will get the penalty for taking yourself out of play to avoid a block, or gain advantage, there is a ruke on this somewhere, I just don't have time to search right now. plus you'd have to be pretty skillful any way to knee slid all the way through the back, and get back up and out of the pack.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby The Wrecknician » 08 Sep 2011, 23:15

Or I just need to practice running on my knees :-D

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 09 Sep 2011, 08:53

Well, I've just been through the illegal procedure penalties and there's nothing in there about taking oneself out of play. Nothing. Nada. Nothing in 8.3 about having to be upright to score. Nothing really in the out of play penalties section either, the only thing I can find is about blocking while out of play, but I think that refers mostly to being outside the EZ. If you try to block while on the floor, you're more likely to get low blocking penalties. Nothing in misconduct or gross misconduct (I'm reading the rules inbetween sentances here). Well, I can't find anything in the rules, if someone else can, let me know, otherwise I'm assuming that there are no penalties for repeatedly taking oneself out of play. The only thing you have to worry about is potentially tripping other people up.

TJ, you say "if you're not in play, you cannot score points", but 8.3 doesn't say that. I have no idea where you're getting this from. Please see the link I posted, the other refs are in agreement that being upright isn't a requirement to score points.

Del, sliding on one knee is legal as it's not adversely affecting gameplay, unless you trip someone while doing it.

I know you can't skate out of bounds to avoid a block, but I can't find anything anywhere about downing yourself to avoid a block.

You can try running on your knees, not sure how far you'll get though! :lol:

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Tequila Jammer » 09 Sep 2011, 10:40

i cant be bothered to argue this im too busy, but im right. if you are downed you are not in play. therefore you cannot play.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby The Wrecknician » 09 Sep 2011, 11:34

I think its one of those rules without a rule... It does not state that you must be upright but you have to be 'in play' to be part of the jam. If you were to knee slide pass the pack and you practiced it so you could actually time it well and execute it without low blocking anyone then I would assume that would be a similar exploitation of the gaps the rules as a knee start.


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