Rules, rules, rules!

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Mr Incredibrawl
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 09 Sep 2011, 13:07

Sorry TJ, you can't say "I'm right" without proving it. I beleive I'm right that jammers can score points while down and out of play and the proof I have is rule 8.3.1 and the corroboration of other, more experienced referees. If anyone can prove I'm wrong, I will happily acquiesce, but until then I'm standing by this.

You may be right Wrecks, it seems to be one of those gaps in the rules which can be exploited as it doesn't say otherwise.

I don't want this to drag on and I don't want any more bad feeling about such a seemingly trivial rule (or lack of), but if you want to prove I'm wrong, by all means do. That's how I learn. :)

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Adele Linquent
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Adele Linquent » 09 Sep 2011, 13:29

You're right, Brawly, if it isn't in the rules, then it isn't. No way round it.
But I'm also pretty sure I saw the same thing as Tequila once upon a time. Whatever happened there, I have no idea...

I'm starting to think that that thing of being upright to be in play may have disappeared from the rules... I'll check on my old version. :?

(I think it's interesting to clarify our understanding of rules and we can always discuss things, even if we disagree :) )

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the Blizzard
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby the Blizzard » 09 Sep 2011, 13:58

Jammer scoring whilst down: I think this was posted already, but 8.3.1 mentions three things: Pass opposing skaters (1) in bounds, (2) legally, (3) without committing penalties. The question is, is a downed jammer in bounds (yes), passing opponents legally (I'm not sure?), committing penalties (No, providing she doesn't hit anyone whilst down).

You must be upright to be in play. This is in the rules. Downed skaters are not in play, until they are standing, stepping and/or skating. From definitions:
Down
Skaters are considered down if they have fallen, been knocked to the ground or
have taken a knee. Skaters on one knee are considered down. After downing
herself or falling, a skater is considered down until she is standing, stepping,
and/or skating. Stationary standing players are not considered down.

In Play
When a skater is positioned within the Engagement Zone and is in bounds, she is
in play and may legally block and assist. Downed players are not in play.Jammers may engage each other anywhere inside the track boundaries for the
duration of the jam, but must be within the Engagement Zone in order to legally
initiate engagement with Blockers.

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the Blizzard
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby the Blizzard » 09 Sep 2011, 14:40

I'd say if the Refs awarded points to the jammer who passes players whilst down, they'd also give her a Major Penalty, because the jammer's Out of Play action affected the game play.

6.10 Out of play penalties ...
Major Penalty
If the out of play action has a measurable consequence for the game it is a major penalty.


(They could issue the penalty even it's not listed under the rules, because:
6. ... TYPES OF PENALTIES
The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be penalized using these specifics as guiding examples.


But this doesn't make common sense of course... it'd make sense if the Refs did not award any points on the basis that the jammer is Out of Play (even scoring points whilst Out of Play is not explicit on the rules) and as there was no impact to the game play, not to give any penalties either. I find this quite interesting, because it means that it's up to the Refs to assess when they can issue penalties. The penalties are just examples. Make sense in a way because the Refs need to keep the game legal and safe.

The more I read the rules, the more rubbish they appear. Can't wait for the rewrite :mrgreen:

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Chick Dastardly
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Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 09 Sep 2011, 23:25

Jammers do not have to be in play to score points, only in bound and legal pass, etc. To get a penalty for taking a knee I think you're thinking of the blocker "intentionally splitting the pack scenario" Del. That's the only place I can think of it mentioned.

There is some bizarro situations that it happens in! I'm certainly not jealous of the refs having to figure out stuff like this on the fly!
http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=2183


the Blizzard wrote: The more I read the rules, the more rubbish they appear. Can't wait for the rewrite :mrgreen:

:D yeah some simplified rules will be great (I hope!)

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Butch Flowers » 10 Sep 2011, 15:16

Wow, at the start this seemed like the simplest rule to clarify but looking through all of this, it really is one of those irritating grey areas. This is my major beef with the current set of rules - there's so much disparity between what a jammer can do when out of play vs out of bounds that it leads to confusion (a similar example is the revision in the most recent set of rules regarding calling off a jam at any time as opposed to when legally on the track and in play).

In the case of a jammer taking a knee (or similar) as they pass another skater, I wouldn't be inclined to award them the pass until they were back on their feet. Provided they hadn't left the track then I can't see any calls being necessary regarding out of play penalties as the blocker in question should disregard a downed jammer as an out of play skater. If they fail to improve / regain their position then a legal pass has occurred as soon as the jammer is fully back in play. The only time I'd call a penalty in this case is if a) the jammer impacts with another skater while downed or b) the jammer leaves the track in the same instance as a downed pass is made.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 12 Sep 2011, 08:35

And this is where consistency becomes key, because while Butch would be disinclined to award points to a jammer skidding past blockers while down (as I understand), we can see from the Zebrahuddle link I posted, some others would (including myself). This might be one of those pre-bout things the jammer refs would have to work out between them, so that they can score their respective jammers fairly (no point one ref awarding extra points when down while the other one doesn't).

We can only hope for a re-write of the rules, there's nothing definite in the pipeline yet, so we could be stuck with these rules for years to come.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 12 Sep 2011, 12:58

Moving along...

I was asked to clarify on this forum what 'no pass, no penalty' and the associated hand signal was all about. There are a couple of nice definitions here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=1881.0

and here

http://www.rollerderbyruleoftheday.com/ ... -hand.html

Ultimately, it happens when a jammer passes an opposing blocker while they are both out of bounds. The pass isn't legal as it's done out of bounds, but the jammer doesn't get a penalty as the blocker is out of bounds too (providing the jammer doesn't try and block said blocker while out of bounds or commit any other infraction). Geddit?

The hand signal is just the outside pack ref communicating to the jammer ref that the jammer passed the blocker illegally and so the pass doesn't count toward points/lead jammer. If the jammer wants to get the pass/point, they have to move back round behind the blocker they passed illegally and pass again legally (i.e. in bounds without commiting penalties).

Any questions? :?:

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Butch Flowers
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Butch Flowers » 12 Sep 2011, 16:23

Not a question but this is signal is one bench managers should watch for. It saves them wasting a time out querying why a jammer got a weird number of points when it looked like the got all the way through the pack.

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Lil » 12 Sep 2011, 18:14

Thanks Paul! I don't know why I had a brain freeze on it :P This may have been why in the closed bout, one of the Plymouth jammers who I knocked out of bounds came back in behind me even though I fell down and out too. (Either that or she didn't know she didn't have to yield to me if I was out of play :P)

As an aside, I have seen refs doing this hand signal alternating with the "not lead jammer signal". It's always handy when refs do this (with any signal) so the jammer can understand why she is not lead - sometimes you miss things in the chaos of getting through the pack. Helps doubly when you understand the rule in the first place :D

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 27 Feb 2012, 13:40

Hello again everyone!

An interesting siuation came up at practice yesterday, where one team was on the track raring to go, but the other team was late and only appeared on the track after the starting whistle. Hmm, what to do?

Having a root around on Zebrahuddle (your one-stop shop for all the things that should have been in the rules), I came across this:
http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=621.15

The problem is, the subject of their discussion is if one team simply refuses to field a team for a jam, not if one just happens to be a bit late on to the track. However, as the rules don't specifically state what to do in this event (not that I can see anyway), it's kinda up to the head ref at the time what happens. There's even the possibility of the Head Ref calling a forfeit, but not really likely. I would assume that the most that would happen would the head ref might call a time out and maybe make one team take a time out, if they have any remaining. Maybe a major penalty if they haven't. Hopefully, it would be cleared up in the captains' meeting before the start of the bout what would happen, but not having done any of those, I wouldn't know for sure.

Another one of those grey areas...

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 27 Feb 2012, 13:41

Also, about blockers being behind the jammer line at the start whistle (which came up yesterday):

http://wftda.com/rules/qa/blockers-on-o ... ammer-line

Pretty concise.

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Chick Dastardly
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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 27 Feb 2012, 13:47

Did you look up the "jam called off cos one team didn't make it to the track in time" thingio? I thought it was a major to the pivot, but that could well be the forcing jam to be called off due to too *many* skaters on the track, rather than too few

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Mr Incredibrawl » 28 Feb 2012, 08:42

What thingio's that?

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Re: Rules, rules, rules!

Postby Chick Dastardly » 28 Feb 2012, 08:43

when you called the jam off because the other team hadn't got to the track in time. was that a penalty?


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